From Scope Creep to Charging Right with Heather Zeitzwolfe

Daniel Abendroth: 00:00:04

So How much is that?

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:18

Welcome to Podcast Editors Mastermind. This is the business

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:22

podcast for you podcast editors out there. We started

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:25

as a small mastermind, what, 4 years ago almost

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:29

at this point, and now we share it with you guys. It's kinda

Daniel Abendroth: 00:00:33

the thing about, like, it's it was like, what, in March of 2020? March of

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:36

2020. Well, our first episode was recorded in the hallway at

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:39

Podfest. Wow. Kinda nuts. But I'm Jennifer

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:43

Longworth with Bourbon Barrel Podcasting. And my cohost

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:47

today? Daniel Abendroth at

Daniel Abendroth: 00:00:49

RothMedia.Audio. And not appearing are Bryan and

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:53

Carrie. Hopefully, they'll be back again with us soon. And we have a very

Jennifer Longworth: 00:00:56

special guest today, Heather Zeitzwolfe. Heather,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:00

unmute yourself and welcome to the program. Hey. Thank you. I I you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:01:04

know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:01:12

like, probably Easter or something, but it looks like something out of,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:01:16

like, Midsummer Night Dream. I I love it. Oh, there's Bryan. Bryan is

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:19

joining us in the comments today. He's not feeling well.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:01:23

Unfortunately, he's still recovering from COVID. He's all good to go except a

Daniel Abendroth: 00:01:26

cough, which, as you can imagine, trying to record an hour long podcast when

Daniel Abendroth: 00:01:30

you have a tickle in your throat is probably not the best idea. So

Daniel Abendroth: 00:01:34

he'll be joining us in chat,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:01:38

though we do miss him on the show. And we welcome anyone to join us

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:42

in chat. We love to see questions, comments as we go along. Please

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:46

jump in and be part of the conversation. So our special guest, I'm

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:49

gonna give you the official bio here. Actually, I'm stealing it from your

Jennifer Longworth: 00:01:53

LinkedIn profile. Oh, I don't know. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:01:57

haven't, but I don't know if I've updated that. It still sounds like you. It

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:00

says you are a creative, empathetic nerd who enjoys numbers.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:04

Right? Yep. That hasn't changed. Right. She helps her clients understand their

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:08

finances so they can make empowered decisions in their business. Her approach

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:12

is nonjudgmental and shame free. She's not

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:15

your dad's accountant, unless your dad's accountant has funky

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:19

colored hair transforms tofu into delicious desserts and geeks out

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:23

on writing sketch comedy. Still you. Yep. That's still me.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:02:27

All right. Right. Her passions include cooking amazing plant based

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:30

food, standing up for animal rights. This includes humans and helping

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:34

podcasters. So again, welcome to the show. Thank you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:02:38

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. And if people were at

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:41

Podcast, you were the amazing closing keynote this

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:45

year telling us Thank you. The fairy tale of the

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:49

scope creep, which Yes. Basically was just

Jennifer Longworth: 00:02:52

a message for Editor. And I felt very called out,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:02:56

which is why you're on the podcast. Oh, well, you know, there was a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:00

of juicy details that had to be cut out for time. And,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:04

truth be told, I was scrambling to cut things before

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:08

coming on stage. That's why I was looking at my notes because

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:12

there was just so much to go over, and I had to cut a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:15

of juicy good stuff. So I'm glad to be here to talk

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:18

further about this stuff. So give us a quick definition of scope

Jennifer Longworth: 00:03:22

creep. Yeah. Scope creep. You know, it's one of those words that some people are

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:26

familiar with and other people have never even heard of scope

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:29

or scope creep. You know? And so I think it kinda just depends on the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:33

type of business that you've worked for or, like, the type of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:36

office or whatever. But scope creep can exist in pretty

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:40

much any kind of service industry. But with creative

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:44

people that are producing something, it can happen a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:47

because the scope creep is this thing that comes in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:51

where you end up doing things that were either

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:55

not what the client asked for, but you thought they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:03:59

wanted it, or you're going above and beyond

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:03

more than they need the client, or the client asks

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:07

you to do extra things that you never intended to based on the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:11

price that you came up with, or it can also

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:14

kind of flood into, like, not having the right communication with your

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:18

employees or your contractors where they understand

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:22

what you're getting paid for, so the company is getting paid for because a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:26

of employees love to go above and beyond, or maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:29

they're just dragging themselves and taking way too much time,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:33

and then it blows your budget. So you can blow your budget either way.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:36

So it can happen in all these different areas, so that's why we have to

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:40

look at how we're pricing ourselves, our contracts with our our

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:44

clients, and just having a real clear definition of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:48

what it is that we intend to deliver and what they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:04:51

want us to deliver. So one of the things you said when we were

Jennifer Longworth: 00:04:55

talking about this about eliminating scope creep, because that's kind of what we

Jennifer Longworth: 00:04:59

wanna do is starting with the right clients in the

Jennifer Longworth: 00:05:02

first place and Exactly. Getting it a good understanding

Jennifer Longworth: 00:05:06

of of the expectations and everything too. So

Jennifer Longworth: 00:05:10

the most commonly asked question in the podcast editor group is how do I find

Jennifer Longworth: 00:05:14

clients? But we also need to know how we find the right clients. So what

Jennifer Longworth: 00:05:18

what's your insights on that? Yeah. You know, it's so so difficult

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:22

when you first start a business. You know, like, you're so eager to make money

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:25

because you gotta have cash coming in that, you know, tend to, like, just take

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:28

whoever or we may take our friends. And friends

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:32

could be a good relationship, but also friends may, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:36

overstep their boundaries if you haven't really defined those

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:40

boundaries. They may also kind of expect a discount

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:43

or you feel obligated to give them a discount, and now you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:47

getting inundated with a bunch of work that maybe you're getting underpaid

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:50

for and you're maybe over delivering. So, friends, it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:54

a great way to kinda start your business off, especially if you're just kinda dipping

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:05:58

your toe into something and maybe you give them the friend's price or whatever. But

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:01

let them know this is not always gonna be the price and I'm doing you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:05

a solid. So there's that. It can ruin a friendship

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:08

too. I talked about this in my presentation, the friendship thing.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:11

And then the other thing is, like, looking for clients. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:15

probably you're gonna look within your network that you already are

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:19

surrounded with. So, Jennifer, you're in Kentucky. So you said

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:23

you've gotten some local clients, so you're looking in your local community. You meet people

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:27

in your local community, but are they going to be the right

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:30

fit for you? You know, it's a lot of it is just having really

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:34

good conversations with people and not being so eager to just take on a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:38

client. And, again, granted, if you need money coming in, you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:42

gonna just take somebody, but you may decide later on, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:45

maybe this isn't the right client for me. So have things in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:49

place where you can evaluate, like, is this client the right

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:53

fit for me? Maybe I should get other clients,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:06:57

and I believe that's probably something we're gonna talk about later on. It's kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:00

looking to see who is the right fit clients. Yeah. I know

Jennifer Longworth: 00:07:03

after I'm into it who's not a good fit.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:08

Yeah. So once you start to get that data of, like, you know what

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:12

makes not a good fit, like, start writing those things down. And then when you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:16

have, like, they call it discovery calls or whatever you wanna call it,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:20

You know, start to ask them questions to kind of vet these things out.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:23

What are some problems that you encounter, Jennifer? Like, late payments or,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:27

like, delivering stuff to you too late or what a

Jennifer Longworth: 00:07:31

It's Divas. Oh. Okay. So the, like, the high

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:35

maintenance, that sort of thing. That I'm expected to drop

Jennifer Longworth: 00:07:38

everything and fix their show right now. And I've

Jennifer Longworth: 00:07:42

lost 2 clients because they were divas, and I'm like, see you. Don't let the

Jennifer Longworth: 00:07:46

door hit you on the way out. You know? Yeah. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:50

maybe you have like a no diva policy or something in your business.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:53

Like I have like a no jerks. Like, I'm not work working with any

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:07:57

jerks. When I first started my business, I had a jerk. And I was like

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:01

I thought to myself, wait a minute. This is the whole reason why I started

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:04

a business to begin with is I don't have to take jerks anymore. Mhmm. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:08

maybe just let them know, like, in the scope of it, these are the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:11

parameters of when you can, you know, ask me to do things. This is

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:15

the hours that I work, and then you can define it. And if they are

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:19

a diva and, you know, you can just say, like, hey, this was in the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:21

contract that we agreed on, and I would just clearly define that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:25

But some people are still gonna be divas regardless. Right. You know? So I always

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:29

have this thing where at the end of the year, I look at, like, how

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:32

much clients paid me through the year. You know, if you track things like in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:36

QuickBooks or, you know, some some way that you could track the invoices of your

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:39

clients, you could see, like, okay, which ones were, like, the the highest

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:43

paying ones. And then you can kind of rate them on, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:47

pain in the butt client versus easygoing, always

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:51

on time, pays on time. And then you can factor

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:54

in, like, a pain in the butt fee if you really wanna keep them on.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:08:57

You know? That's what I do. Yeah. I was telling my kid about that last

Jennifer Longworth: 00:09:01

night when I was, you know, complaining about somebody. I was like, yeah. I need

Jennifer Longworth: 00:09:04

the pain in the butt fee. Do you put that item line on

Daniel Abendroth: 00:09:08

your invoices pain in the butt? But I put it on my calculation. It's in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:12

my sales spreadsheet when I'm calculating the price. I put it in a little buffer

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:15

in there. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing is, like, if you find that certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:19

clients like, if you've got prices for things and you know that,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:22

like, some clients are gonna ask for a little bit more and but

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:26

you don't know yet if they're going to ask you for those little bit more

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:30

types of things. Maybe just put in, like, a 10%, 20% buffer

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:34

of, like, time and and payment, you know, just to make up for

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:37

the the pain in the butt potential. Pain in the butt

Jennifer Longworth: 00:09:41

potential. Mhmm. And then you just start working that in.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:45

Or, you know, the first time you work with them have, like, an onboarding fee

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:49

and, like, kind of onboard go through the onboarding producer, and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:09:53

maybe you'll find from that isn't just not a good fit. I don't know. That's

Jennifer Longworth: 00:09:56

true. It's like a probationary time, you know, where they're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:00

filling you out and you're filling them out. But well, Bryan's not here, but he

Jennifer Longworth: 00:10:04

has a question in the comments. Okay. Is there a common

Jennifer Longworth: 00:10:07

driver between those who most often ignore their own

Jennifer Longworth: 00:10:10

boundaries and step endoscope creep? Oh, that's a good

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:14

question. Yeah. I mean, I think that a lot of times it's just

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:18

that people just don't know because we haven't set any boundaries.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:22

So I'm one of those people, like, if I get an idea in my head,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:25

I'm just gonna text the person that's involved with it. Like, I don't even think

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:29

about, is it 2 in the morning? Is it the weekend? Like, the ideas popped

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:32

in my head and I just send it. And it's not like I don't respect

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:35

their boundaries. It's just like that's my thought. But I know people, like, put

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:38

things on their phone where it's like do not disturb and all that kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:42

stuff. And then when I see that, I'm like, oh, they probably don't want me

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:44

to contact them. So, you know, let people know. I mean, it could be good

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:48

natured, like mine is. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to be a diva.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:50

I'm just like ideas come into my head. I oftentimes have very little boundaries.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:54

Like, I just let let people contact me anytime they want. So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:10:58

just have to to let them know, like, hey, I'm with my kids

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:02

3 days a week. Don't bother me during this time or something. But as

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:05

far as, like, what kind of people? I'm not really sure. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:09

mean, high maintenance people, I guess. Or really, really low

Jennifer Longworth: 00:11:13

maintenance people who don't think about boundaries like me.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:18

Yeah. I know I've run into, like, acquiescing too much

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:22

because, like, I have my email, you know, linked to my phone. So whenever I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:25

get an email, like, 7 or 8 at night, it's like, I feel like that

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:28

urge to, like, respond right away and would, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:32

take care of it. But it's not, like, stop myself and be, like, this can

Daniel Abendroth: 00:11:35

wait until the morning. Yeah. And then once you once you set that standard,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:39

if you do respond quickly, which I do oftentimes, then you've

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:43

set that expectation now forever. And so then when you don't respond

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:47

quickly, they're like, hey. Yeah. What happened? And maybe you just

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:50

say, hey. You know, I'm getting back to you right away on this because we're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:53

we're first starting out together. But in the future, there's gonna be maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:11:57

a 24 hour turnaround. You know? So let's say you

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:01

are working with a client, scope creep is happening. You figure

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:05

out, like, down the road, they're not a right fit. Like, I guess, what do

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:08

you determine is, like, not the right fit? And then how do you

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:11

proceed to essentially, like, fire your client? Like, what is your strategy there?

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:16

Because for me, it's like well, the one thing I struggle with is, like, I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:19

guess, like, coming from, like, a scarcity mindset is, like, I don't wanna fire

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:22

this client because now I'm making less money. Mhmm.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:26

And, like, that feels icky. But then also, like, the process

Daniel Abendroth: 00:12:30

having that conversation of, like, we're not a good fit. Goodbye.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:34

Yeah. Well, if you don't like that uncomfortable conversation, raise your rates.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:38

That's even worse. But it was

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:42

seriously, though, if it's just not working out, maybe find somebody that would be

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:46

a better fit for them. Mhmm. I mean, do you work with

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:49

mainly, like, one industry? Like, I know some people are like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:53

oh, I only work with lawyers or, you know, with doctors, you know, whatever.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:12:57

And they kinda know the expectations of those, you know, people that are,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:01

like, are in that same industry usually have the same kind of tendencies.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:04

But if you've got a whole wide range of clients, it may make it a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:08

little bit more difficult. But you're saying, like, you've gotta pay the bills and

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:12

stuff. You gotta weigh that, like, the pros and cons of, like, if I let

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:15

this person go, okay, maybe my stress level is gonna go down, my

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:19

health is gonna be better. I won't be working such long hours. Yeah. I'll be

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:22

get paid less, but I won't have all those awful things. So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:26

you know, that is part of business, but I'd find somebody else for them.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:30

Like, give them, like, 3 recommendations of other people that they could work with maybe,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:13:34

but or raise rates. Yeah. Yeah. I think

Daniel Abendroth: 00:13:38

I had, like, a a while ago or something that that like, it's always in

Daniel Abendroth: 00:13:42

my head. It's, like, if there's something you don't wanna do or somebody don't wanna

Daniel Abendroth: 00:13:44

work with, give them like a really high number because either one, they don't wanna

Daniel Abendroth: 00:13:48

work with you and problem solved or 2, they do, but at least you're getting

Daniel Abendroth: 00:13:52

well compensated for the discomfort. And I

Jennifer Longworth: 00:13:55

tried to break up with a scope creep client recently. I was like, you know

Jennifer Longworth: 00:13:59

what? Maybe I'm not the one for you because I

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:02

have this day job. I can't drop everything during the week. And

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:06

they went, we'll fix it. Oh. We'll cater to you. And I

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:10

was like, well, drat. Hope you get one in.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:14

Yeah. Well, so sometimes, you know, you just have to and things will probably

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:18

turn around for that person, I would imagine. Yeah. I mean, a lot of times,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:22

it's just like setting the boundaries. But that whole presentation that I did,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:25

it really all came down to, like, the contract. And, like, from the contract, set

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:29

the terms. And that way, they know what to expect. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:33

know what to expect. And when those things don't align, then you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:36

like, hey. You know what? I know you're in a rush for this. There's

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:40

gonna be an extra fee, you know, and then, you know, you're gonna get paid

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:43

more and maybe you have to bring in a contractor to help you with it,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:14:46

but at least you're getting compensated for it. So let's

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:49

talk about that contract. Yeah. Is what it all comes

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:53

down to. My contract is kinda weak right now, and I know I need to

Jennifer Longworth: 00:14:57

revamp it, especially since I'm bringing on new contractors and,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:15:00

and things are, are changing in my little business. That's not a one

Jennifer Longworth: 00:15:04

woman show anymore. I'm like, oh, maybe need to consider

Jennifer Longworth: 00:15:08

this. So when drawing up a new contract, what

Jennifer Longworth: 00:15:12

are some things I need to be considering? What do I need to think of?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:16

Okay. So if you are thinking that you're gonna outsource some of this work,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:19

you'll wanna think about okay. It's different if you're doing the work and it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:23

going directly to you, but now you're bringing out somebody else, you have to pay

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:26

them. It's gotta be something that I mean, unless you're, like, sending it overseas or

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:30

something, you're gonna be paying a decent rate. Right? So then there's gotta be some

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:33

kind of markup for that. Again, in my presentation, like, I talked about,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:37

like, rather than paying by the hour, maybe pay by the project.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:41

Definitely. And so if you do pay by have them pay by the project, the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:44

client should also be paying by the project, like, within a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:48

certain scope. So that way you have expectations of, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:51

okay. I know, like, every time I do this show for this person,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:55

if it's x amount of length or whatever, I'm gonna pay my

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:15:59

contractor this, and I always know that I'm gonna make this percentage. And that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:02

way, you know, you've covering all your costs. So I would make sure, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:06

think about, like, okay. Am I gonna pay a contractor to do this? How much

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:09

am I gonna pay them for this? And then what do I wanna have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:13

left over? So figure out those pieces, and then you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:17

do some things to kind of, like, sweeten the deal of, like, having a little

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:20

extra things, you know, like, I talked about bundling your offer. Like, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:24

could have, like, a, you know, 3 tiered thing, or you could have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:27

little I was gonna say hors d'oeuvres. That's not the word I'm thinking. A la

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:31

carte. A la carte. Yes. You can have some a la carte

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:34

type stuff that will be extra. But, again, thinking about, like, if it you have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:38

to outsource it, how much is that gonna cost? So put together a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:42

spreadsheet, or if you hate spreadsheets, put it just down on a piece of paper

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:45

and kind of figure out how much you wanna make. And, you know, you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:48

start with, like, how long it took you to to do this, what you wanna

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:52

make from it, what you were making before, and then you're gonna have to add

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:55

a little bit of buffer. So prices are probably gonna have to go up if

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:16:58

you are bringing on contractors. Oh, yeah. Prices are going

Jennifer Longworth: 00:17:01

up. Watch out. Oh, we got a question. Is there

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:05

a typical upcharge that would help us be in an appropriate

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:09

range? Yeah. You know what? It really depends on a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:13

lot of your overhead. Oh, wait. I, enough to cover

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:16

the admin, but not so much as to be gouging.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:20

Yeah. Okay. So, you know, the thing with our business is it kinda all starts

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:24

with if this is not a side hustle, if this is our bread and butter

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:27

business, right, this is our main gig, we need to be able to pay our

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:31

bills. Right? So we need to look at, like, what is our budget

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:34

for our personal life? And then how much do we need to make in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:38

our business to cover that? Because, hopefully, our business is

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:42

gonna cover that. And then how much extra do we want? So we

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:46

can kinda start from there and kind of backtrack. Like, how many clients do I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:49

wanna take on? How much do they need to how much would they have to

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:53

pay if for me to make the money that I wanna make? And you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:17:57

kinda back into it that way and start to figure, like, okay. If I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:01

gonna have 10 clients and they're each, you know, spending

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:05

I'm just making things up. A 1,000 a month. Okay. Are you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:08

making a 1,000, or is that, is that, like, net of all your costs,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:12

or is that before all the costs? Like, is that the sales price? So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:16

gotta have to think about both. Like, what do I wanna charge them? What do

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:19

I wanna keep in my pocket? So I'd start with, what do I wanna keep

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:22

in my pocket and back backtrack? And you'll find that that's a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:25

scary number. Like, you think like, oh, yeah. I wanna make, like, 200,000

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:30

net income. And then you, like, look and you're like, oh my god. I have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:33

to, like, bring in $700,000 worth of,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:18:37

you know, business. Then you're like, do I really wanna deal with that? Maybe

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:41

you don't wanna have certain services where the margins are

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:44

thinner. Maybe you wanna have things that have higher margins. So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:48

where you make more from that service. So you you kinda have to look

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:52

at the blend and the mix. That's why I like to have bundled services because

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:18:56

it's, you can, you know, put in some little extra things in there

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:00

that maybe are, like, recordings, you know, prerecorded

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:03

classes that you've done or something that you can offer them. Oh.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:07

Something that's not gonna, like, take that like, you do it once, and

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:11

then you just give it to them. Like, you put together, like, a pitch deck.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:14

I'm just making things up. Like, oh, you like to be on podcast. Okay. These

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:18

are great pitches that you can use to go on podcast, or maybe you've

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:22

done some research on different podcasts that would be great for them, and they could

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:25

buy this little book from you of, like, great podcast

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:29

to apply on. You know? I don't know. Mhmm. Something you just do once.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:33

You know? Chap GPT it, you know, and then and then, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:36

know, and then you could put it as part of the bundle as, like, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:39

know, say, like, oh, this is normally, like, $700 or I don't know

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:19:43

what you're making, but, you know, so you can add it in. But I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:19:46

like that because, like, initially, I what comes to mind is, like, okay. What can

Daniel Abendroth: 00:19:50

I do that's worth a $1,000? It's like, okay. Well, I can, you know, show

Daniel Abendroth: 00:19:53

notes, Francis, blah blah blah. Stuff that's, like, adds a lot more to your play

Daniel Abendroth: 00:19:57

each episode. But the idea of having something that you create,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:02

like, my wife and I, so we're, like, business partners in this ordeal.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:06

Someone's been, like, on our to do list for years now is, like, a course

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:09

on, like, how to start a podcast or whatever. But just, like, have some sort

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:12

of, like, videos. Like, you put in a lot of effort upfront, but then

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:16

it adds to the value of your service without

Daniel Abendroth: 00:20:20

adding work onto your plate for every client for every episode. I mean, as long

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:23

as it's something people want. Right. So you don't wanna go through all that effort.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:26

I would, you know so before you do something I mean, check g g p

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:30

t, you know, so I'm not gonna take you long, but putting all the courses

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:32

together. But I would ask your stable of clients now. Is this something that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:36

you'd be interested in? If so, like, how much do you think it's worth?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:40

You know? And just ask around and put it in some podcasting

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:44

meetup groups or something and ask people, like because, I mean, it would be people

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:47

that are podcasting that would be interested in that. Right? So Right. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:51

get geared towards the people you're gonna edit shows for. So and maybe, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:55

if you do stuff that's, like, like, just say it's, like, it's, like, the real

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:20:59

estate, I'm just making it. You know? You work with realtors or

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:02

something. Then you look into all the, like, the podcast that would be for, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:06

know, around real estate. And then maybe you find some good manager, and maybe it's

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:10

part of, like, helping them get on shows and it's already people that you already

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:13

know and it's not a big deal. You know? So So we talked a little

Jennifer Longworth: 00:21:17

bit about the contract. So I get a contract. I figure

Jennifer Longworth: 00:21:20

out how much I'm charging, but I gotta get

Jennifer Longworth: 00:21:24

paid. Mhmm. How we get paid. Part of the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:27

contract should have your payment terms in there. When you're doing

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:31

something like a podcast, you are You

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:41

don't want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yeah. That would suck. You don't

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:43

want that to happen. Right? No. It sucks. Yes. That would

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:46

suck. And, you know, there are terrible people out there that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:50

do stuff like that. And I've got a a client that works

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:54

in a creative field, and she was using

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:21:57

PayPal and I think Venmo.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:01

And she would do the work, give them the deliverables, and they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:04

would pay, but then they would take the payment back. Oh. And,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:08

after she delivered it. And so they were just scamming her. You know? And it

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:12

wasn't that she delivered something bad. It was just they so you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:16

wanna make sure that you when you're taking payment, it's through something that someone can't

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:19

take the payment back. Wow. I mean, it's it's different if you give them a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:22

refund, but, you know, they can contest with PayPal or something like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:26

So just be careful. Make sure that you get the payment up front if you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:30

can. If you're, like, put them on a retainer, if that's a possibility where they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:34

just get maybe they get a, like, a monthly invoice from you that,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:37

you know, you have an agreement, like, you're gonna do 4 shows a month or

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:41

3 shows or whatever it is. And if they say, like, I can't afford this

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:45

now, maybe you just take a partial payment every week. But

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:48

before you give them the deliverable, make sure that they make the payment

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:52

because once you give them the deliverable even if it's friends. Oh my god. They're,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:22:56

like, the worst. Oh. Because you, like, think, like, oh, I don't need a contract.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:23:00

It's my friend. You know? Yeah. I've been burned by that. How,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:03

like, ironclad does your contract need to be? Because one thing that I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:07

struggle with is having just like, I'm

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:11

just turned off by the idea of, like, the legalese jargon and,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:14

like, client, hitherto known as party a blah

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:18

blah blah agrees to the following term, but it's just like, ugh.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:22

This makes me cringe. It's like, I want something simple that just

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:25

outlines what I need, but, also, I wanna make sure I'm protected. And I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:29

think we sat down to do something simple. But by the time we actually

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:33

included, like, all the stuff we wanted to, it's, like, 8 pages. And now

Daniel Abendroth: 00:23:36

I'm, like, oh, I hate it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm not a lawyer, so I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:23:40

can't really answer that. But I think Gordon Firemark, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:23:44

think he has something on his website that may or maybe he

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:23:47

has, like, something you could purchase from him. I'm not sure. Wanted specifically

Jennifer Longworth: 00:23:51

for podcast editors. Oh, interesting. Oh. I

Jennifer Longworth: 00:23:55

need to reach out to him about that. Alright, Gordon. That's something

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:23:59

he should draft. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I would just think

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:03

about, like, you know, if you're not into, like, the whole legal thing, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:06

mean, you want it to be something that they sign, that you both sign. I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:10

mean, that's something you can take, like, a, you know, put it through

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:14

DocuSign. So it's, you know, can be a, electronic signature.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:17

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but you could make some agreements through an email first

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:21

and then draft it up and then put it into a document of some sort

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:24

that they sign. So you can go kinda go back and forth with the terms,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:27

so it's not like they're inundated by this, like, horrible thing. You know? You can

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:31

make it more casual at first and then just document the whole thing and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:35

have them sign it. But, yeah, I'm sure that there's

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:39

a gbt. I'm just taking a drink taking a

Jennifer Longworth: 00:24:42

drink. No. Just I would think about, like, all the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:46

deliverables that you do for clients, the areas where you, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:50

you end up spending extra time, you know, like, is there a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:53

buffer of, like, how many redos that you do? Like, I I would just, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:24:57

know, put in all the things where you feel like start to notice, like, oh

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:01

god. I feel like I'm going above and beyond here. And I'm just kinda go

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:05

back and look. Maybe look at some shows that you've editor and be like, oh

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:07

my god. Yeah. Oh, that was, you know what if there's, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:11

sounds like the guy's got a lawnmower going on one side and you gotta deal

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:15

with that? Or, like, one time I interviewed somebody who was in a coffee shop,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:18

and I'm like, oh god, why are you in a coffee shop? There's, like, so

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:21

much clanging and, you know, then it was terrible. So maybe just

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:25

have clear terms of, like, hey, you gotta be in a quiet okay. You know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:28

I don't know. Unless and just say, like, I gotta charge you extra. Yeah.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:25:32

We need to have an upcharge for people who use Blue Yetis. Yes.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:25:37

Thou shalt use a dynamic microphone or else I'm not editing your

Jennifer Longworth: 00:25:41

show. No ifs, ands, or buts.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:45

That's funny. So you had said freebies and incentives.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:25:49

How do we leverage freebies and incentives, Heather? Okay. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:53

freebies and incentives. So that would be like, you know, we wanna try to

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:25:56

get in new clients. So if we're looking for leads, you mentioned like, hey. How

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:00

do we get clients? You know? We we can have some freebies, which

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:04

would be like a free download kinda thing. And, again, you could use, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:07

like well, maybe you don't wanna tell people how to edit it, or maybe you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:10

make it look like it's so complicated people want it.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:26:15

Look how hard this is. Don't you wanna hire me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:19

incentives would be like, hey. If you pay me for 3 months

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:22

worth of podcast upfront, I will give you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:26

this deal, or I will, you know, throw in this extra thing

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:30

or, you know, something. You could, you know, give them a little something to

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:34

make them sweeten the deal. That that's what that is. So it may

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:37

be it doesn't, like, cost you much extra, but it sweetens the deal for

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:41

them. Maybe if they wanna pay you in increments because every time

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:45

you do a transaction, you know, there might be those transact extra transaction

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:48

fees. Say, like, hey. If you pay me in 6 months chunks,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:52

oh, you know, reduce this by this amount for for that, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:26:56

know. That way you get the money upfront. Yeah. You can do things like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:00

And then freebies, another freebie thing is, like, you guys could

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:04

put on events where podcasters get to come

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:07

on to Zoom and, like, podcasters meet you and they all get

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:11

to meet each other and, you know, this can be like a a networking group.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:15

I mean, other people do that, and people love that kind of thing where they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:18

get to network with other podcasters. So if if you start to be that person

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:21

that brings them in, then they're like, oh, and then by the way I add

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:25

it, you know, and then, okay, now they're gonna think of you. So, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:29

there's you you can get creative with it. That's an interesting idea of, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:27:33

having almost kind of a podcast or mastermind or a meetup or something.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:27:37

It's, like, come together and share ideas or ask questions and

Daniel Abendroth: 00:27:40

get advice. I host 1 once a month.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:44

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You do it once a month. You can stream it. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:48

can also put on workshops. So, you know, again, maybe it's how to editor,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:51

and then you just show them, hey. It's really you know, this is a lot

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:27:54

of work, and then they'll wanna hire you. So I'm sending a note to

Daniel Abendroth: 00:27:58

my wife that we needed to, like, enter like, look at this. Yeah. Or

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:02

maybe it's why you need a podcast. Maybe that's better. Like Yeah. Do

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:06

a workshop on why you need a podcast, and then you can show them, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:09

what your clients are doing. Like, you can show, like, the different shows that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:13

you've been working on and how it's increased their sales or how

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:17

they've utilized it, how it's increased their

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:20

speaking. I don't know. Yeah. Whatever it's sent for them. Bryan's comment. We

Daniel Abendroth: 00:28:24

say it's for the audience, but we're the ones taking notes. Hey. I brought Heather

Jennifer Longworth: 00:28:27

on specifically because she called me out without knowing it at

Jennifer Longworth: 00:28:31

Podfest. So, of course, we had to find out for ourselves. You know, it was

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:35

really funny. I had somebody contact me after my my speech, and she

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:39

was not an editor. She was a podcaster, and she

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:42

said, I I had to contact my editor right away

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:46

after your presentation because I felt so bad about all

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:28:49

the things I've been asking for. Oh, wow. Oh, I love that.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:28:54

My biggest mistake lately that I'm fixing is being like,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:28:57

oh, yeah. I can do that for you. Yeah. But now I'm adding I can

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:01

do that for you, and it costs this much more. Yeah. Yeah. You

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:29:05

know? I had that with, like, one of my first clients. It was, like, it

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:07

started out just editor, and it's, like, oh, I wanna start doing YouTube. Okay.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:11

Sure. Well, not got charged extra, but not enough cause I didn't know what I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:15

was doing. And I was like, hey. Could you, like, write a blur for the

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:18

for each episode? Oh, yeah. That's not much work. I can do that. Blah blah

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:20

blah. And then suddenly, I was spending 6 hours a week for a $100.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:29:25

It's just like, okay. This is not working out. So one of the other

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:29

things you sent was look at your numbers and examine what went

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:32

right and what went wrong, then make projections for the future. So

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:36

I'm in a money class right now with our local chamber of commerce, and

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:40

I'm learning that I really don't know anything about this stuff.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:44

So what are some basic how to look at your numbers and examine on

Jennifer Longworth: 00:29:48

that, you know, talk to me like I'm 5 type thing. Okay.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:29:52

Hopefully, you know, you're keeping things in, like, QuickBooks or some kind of bookkeeping

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:29:56

software. Maybe you're not. Maybe you, hopefully, you're keeping at least, like, an Excel.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:00

No judgment if you're not keeping it at all. Hopefully, you got receipts and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:04

you add it up, you know, for tax time. But if you can do it

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:07

on a monthly basis, then you can kinda see how things are

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:11

going. Take a client that you feel like there was, like, a lot of extra

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:14

work there and kind of examine. Like, maybe when you first start with a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:18

client, as much as I hate timing things, maybe you start timing things and

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:22

just see, like, how long is it taking you to do these things. I know

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:25

when I go to hire a contractor, every step that I'm gonna have them

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:29

do, I time myself doing that activity so I know

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:32

approximately how long it should take them? And then I can kind of figure

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:36

out by the hour that I'm paying them, or is it by the project? So,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:40

again, whenever you can pay by the project, I'd rather do that. So kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:43

examine each little piece and then go back and say, like, okay. What

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:47

were all the costs associated with me with this client

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:51

with this project? Did you have to buy, you know, new piece of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:54

software? Did you have to learn a new piece of software? Did you have to,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:30:58

like you were talking about YouTube. Like, now you're now all of a sudden, you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:01

having to do these, like, your thumbnails, you had to get software that did

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:05

that, and now it's taking extra time, like, all the extra little things,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:09

and then figuring out, like, okay, if I did this, like, you can give

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:12

yourself an hourly rate or something, kind of look at and see, like, holy

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:16

crap. Did I only made, like, $5 an hour? Like, I mean, if you start

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:19

to look at all the stuff that goes into it and then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:23

educating yourself and granted, you're gonna have that knowledge for later, but still, it

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:27

takes up time. You know, it's like, all that stuff goes into it. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:31

look at all the time that you spent and then put a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:34

number attached to it, like an hourly rate or something. And just look look to

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:38

see, like, did I make any money off of this thing? Unless we're kind of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:41

going back and and looking, we we may kinda have a gut instinct

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:45

about it, but we may not know, like, how bad it was or maybe it

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:48

was better than we expected. But then that gives us some data that we

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:52

can use for the future when we go to price something. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:56

we can make a standard, like, spreadsheet and try to figure, like, okay. If I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:31:59

do show notes, I'm gonna charge this much. You know? And then but then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:03

look and see, like, how long did it really take you to do those show

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:06

notes? Like, was it 5 manager, or was it, like, an hour? Do you

Daniel Abendroth: 00:32:10

have a tool that you use to track your time? You know, there's so many

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:13

tools online to do that. I mean, you could even use your phone. But, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:17

mean, there's certain ones where you can, like, put in a client. I hate

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:20

timing things, so I I do too. But there's there's a lot of free

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:24

ones out there, and some of them have gone out of business. I don't even

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:27

wanna say what they are, but, like, I keep a lot of stuff in Notion.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:30

Like, when I'm doing my podcast, like, everything is in there. So you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:34

could depending on where you organize your stuff for your client, there may be a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:38

timing tool. I don't know. What do you guys use to organize stuff for your

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:41

clients? I use Airtable. Okay. Do they have a timing thing in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:45

there? I wonder. I currently use RescueTime because

Daniel Abendroth: 00:32:49

I, like, tracks whatever software you're using. And so I kinda keep track of, like

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:32:53

Right. Oh, you're watching YouTube versus now now you're in

Daniel Abendroth: 00:32:56

Reaper, so you're working blah blah blah. Mhmm. But it's just like it doesn't

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:00

track per project, so I don't know because I know, like, how long I'm working

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:04

and, like, being productive versus not. Mhmm. I used to use

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:07

toggl, t oggl, and you could, like, start as a timer.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:11

So you put in, like, what I'm working on, you know, this client now,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:14

start. And when you're done, you can stop it, then you get a report. Like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:18

my assistant uses that to keep track of whatever she's working on. Mhmm. And, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:21

it be a report and everything. But my problem is I always forget to, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:24

start and stop. And then I'm never, like, working on, like, one

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:28

client, like, one per thing consistently. So it's, like, okay. I'll

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:32

bring 3 shows into RX. Like, oh, I'm gonna work on

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:35

this one. Like Mhmm. Get this process going while that's running. I'm gonna do this.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:39

And now it's just it may get convoluted. I need to, like

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:43

well, I really need to, like, do better at tracking and, like, focus for, you

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:46

know, a month and be diligent about tracking it and kinda see where I'm

Daniel Abendroth: 00:33:50

at, but it's just I don't. Yeah. I mean, at least when you first bring

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:33:53

on a client or something and see unless you have, like, an extra fee for,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:33:57

like, onboarding type stuff. But once you get in the groove of what it is

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:00

they're paying for, yeah, maybe time. I I know. I hate that too because I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:04

Mhmm. I'm a multitasker. I work on, like, a bunch of things. But you could

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:08

be working on, like, bringing in something that's, like, it's generating the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:11

transcript. So you can have that going, that time. Yeah. Is that still the time

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:14

for that? And then you could be working on email while that's still going and

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:18

or, you know, for another client and put that time. You could have double time.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:21

I mean, it's still time. I mean Yeah. You still have to wait for it.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:25

One of the other things you had also with we've talked about hiring contractors,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:34:29

the difference between hiring contractors and actually hiring

Jennifer Longworth: 00:34:32

employees. So there's a huge difference, and you just made a

Jennifer Longworth: 00:34:36

face for those folks who are are listening later and can't see. I haven't made

Jennifer Longworth: 00:34:39

an epic face over that of, oh my goodness. Don't make the wrong

Jennifer Longworth: 00:34:43

decision here. With contractors, you know, it's gotta

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:47

like make the smell test for what a contractor is. And so

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:51

there's the IRS has their own standards of what a contractor is, and then each

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:34:55

state might have, like, California is very strict.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:34:58

Mhmm. So you don't wanna you know, if you've got somebody working for you in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:01

California and they're doing things that the smell test is

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:05

more like an employee, then you better have them on payroll. The thing with the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:09

contractors, they had need to be invoicing you. They need to have their own

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:12

business separately. So, you know, it's like they invoice you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:17

And with contractors, they should be using their own tools,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:20

making their own schedules. Like, there's, like, different parameters around

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:24

that. You're not giving them a laptop. I mean, I I'm sure, like, you can

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:27

probably have them log in to your software. You know? I'm not saying that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:31

that's true for everybody. This is not tax advice.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:35

You know, make sure that they kind of fit the parameters of what a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:39

contractor is. It gets fuzzy in these creative worlds,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:42

you know, I think people are probably acting more

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:46

like employees than contractors, but, you know, I oftentimes

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:50

see, he'll go to a website and I'll see people on the website

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:54

and it's like, this is my team. And I'm like, I thought they were supposed

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:35:57

to be contractors. Now they're showing up as your team on your website.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:01

Like, that looks like an employee to me. So I'd be careful

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:04

about being, on the Internet with that kind of stuff where you're showing,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:08

like, my team. And it's like, the IRS just does a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:12

quick Google and they see that, and they're like, wait a minute. You don't have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:15

any payroll. What's going on here? Not like they're doing that, but, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:18

know, I would be afraid of that. You know? Mhmm. The thing with an employee

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:22

is that you have to pay them their tax, payroll tax.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:26

And so, you know, a lot of companies are trying to avoid payroll tax. So

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:28

that's why the IRS is so strict about this. And in California,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:32

there's a lot of, like, employee protections and, like, they wanna make sure

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:36

everybody is okay, you know, paid correctly. And I'm not an expert in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:39

California. For an employee that, you know, they've got you bring them on,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:43

you hire them, there might be a set, like, as amount of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:47

hours that you give them, they work in a certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:51

span of time, you know, like, from 9 to 5 or whatever it is

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:55

that you have them work. But you can look at on the, you you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:36:58

on the Internet and see, like, what is the parameters for, like, a

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:02

contractor versus an employee. So, yeah, I would just be very careful.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:05

But if you do do employees,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:09

I definitely would use payroll software. Don't try

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:13

to, like, do it yourself. I've seen people try to do payroll

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:17

themselves, and you don't wanna mess around with payroll taxes,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:20

like, no. Because you could find yourself in a world of hurt.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:24

So I use Gusto. I have an affiliate link. If you wanna use it, you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:28

get, like, a $100 or $200. It depends on when they when you sign somebody

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:32

up. So Cool. Yeah. Feel free to share that. Yeah. We'll put it in the

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:35

show notes. So if you anybody listening that wants to use that affiliate

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:39

link or honestly find any links we talk about or links to

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:43

work with or find more about Heather. Just check the show notes, podcast editors

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:47

mastermind.com, and you'll find it all there. I use wave.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:37:50

Uh-huh. Yeah. Waveapps.com. It's free except you Yeah. Like, the

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:54

month what you pay is in transaction fees. Whenever somebody pays an invoice,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:37:58

then they take a little cup of that. Super easy to use, and they do

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:02

offer payroll. I think it's $40 a month, and then it's, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:05

$6 per employee, they kinda do it all

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:09

yourself, which is pretty nice. Never had to use it. I would imagine you could

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:38:12

set up your contractors through that too. And so they Yeah. You can file your

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:38:15

10.90 nines and everything through that. I did that 1 year, but it was

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:18

really frustrating because, obviously, around tax time, they

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:22

get really busy. And I made a mistake on the 10.99. Like, Like, hey. I

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:26

need to do revision, and it took, like, weeks before they finally get around

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:30

to it. And plus, like, you had to sign up for, like,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:33

their payroll service. So, like, you're paying the $40 plus $6 per

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:37

person. And then after, like, that one year, it's like, you know what? I think

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:40

I use, it's like, 10.99 through text something.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:43

Manager website, it's, like, $3 to file the 1099, so I said

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:47

that. But if I was doing payroll and, like, that would

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:51

totally, yeah, they can do the 10.99 filing and do all that

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:54

for you. Yeah. I would definitely use a cheaper software for that. Yes.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:38:59

Made that mistake. 1 year, never again. I don't know if you ever listen to

Jennifer Longworth: 00:39:03

our show, but towards the end of our show, we like to draw a card

Jennifer Longworth: 00:39:07

from our pod decks. Oh. Deck of cards.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:10

Okay. And has a random question on it. Now Okay.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:39:14

I don't have the pod decks, but Bryan does, and I made him draw a

Jennifer Longworth: 00:39:18

question before the show. He says, what's the

Jennifer Longworth: 00:39:22

best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:25

Oh, best piece of advice I've ever been

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:29

given. Oh, okay. This is one,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:33

that I hold near and dear to me. I used

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:37

to volunteer for Big Brothers Big Sisters. Oh.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:41

And I was matched with my little who

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:45

came from a home that was, like, poverty stricken. It was, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:48

something that I've never witnessed before. And

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:52

the mom, some of the things that she did,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:56

she wouldn't show up places. You know? It's like and I'm going through all this

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:39:59

effort to to be there for her little kid and, like, I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:03

got her kid, like, all these, like, calendars and cute things, and then, like, and,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:06

like, next time I'd come and they'd be in, like, in the garbage and, like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:09

just like all these. And then I knew that the the mom

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:13

couldn't pay rent, like, she was and, like, they were maybe gonna get

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:16

evicted and, like, but then she got some money and then she went and bought

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:20

toys for the kids. And I was just like and I'm like, oh my god.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:23

Like, she's making all these bad choices. And this was my own judgment of,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:26

like, what I thought what I would do differently. And I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:30

was putting that those what I would expect her to act like

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:34

onto her. And I learned from talking to my

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:37

advisor at Big Brothers Big Sisters that, like, you can't expect people

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:41

to behave in the way that you behave. Like, they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:45

have a background that's totally different. They're in a totally different situation.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:49

There's all these different factors that are like, yeah. You're not walking in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:53

the same shoes as this person, so you can't expect her to act the same

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:40:57

way that you would. And that was a very good

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:01

lesson because now when people act a way that I'm

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:04

like, god. Why are they acting that way? I'm like, well, you know what? I

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:07

don't know their whole backstory. I can't, you know, have any judgment

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:11

against the way that they act. That was a a great lesson. That was

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:15

quite a while ago now that I think of it. It was 17 years ago

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:18

or something. So So for me recently, it's,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:41:22

it's yet to be determined if this was good advice. But, hey,

Jennifer Longworth: 00:41:26

my business is growing. And I was in another mastermind group. They're like, well, you

Jennifer Longworth: 00:41:29

have to raise your rates and hire people. Are you prepared to take on more

Jennifer Longworth: 00:41:33

stuff? You're gonna have to raise your rates and hire people if you're gonna grow.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:41:37

I'm like, okay. So we'll see what happens. So that's what I'm doing.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:41

Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. If you wanna grow your business, unless you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:45

doing something that is passive where, you know, it's just you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:48

selling things while you sleep, if it's something like this where you're

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:52

producing something, yeah, you're gonna have to take on more people. And then

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:56

you take on that role of being more of, like, a manager of

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:41:59

manager and and CEO, the visionary. Right? Until you

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:03

can until you can hire a manager. Right. So, you know, a lot of times

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:06

people get into business because they like to do something like editing or, you know,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:09

this is, like, fun for them. And then when they grow, they

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:13

find, oh my god. Now I have to, like, take care of a staff, and

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:16

now I gotta be a I gotta be a manager. Like, I don't like that.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:19

I don't like hiring and firing and doing all these things. So sometimes

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:23

growth isn't made you know, it's not for everybody. Maybe it's just

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:26

like, you know, you just don't have one contractor. You know?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:30

Everybody doesn't have to grow, but just depends. And then also,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:34

when you do grow, that doesn't mean that you're not gonna have more money in

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:37

your pocket. That could mean that you actually are, like, you've got all these people

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:40

doing this stuff, but then if your profit margins

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:44

aren't a certain amount and your costs aren't a certain amount, you may end

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:48

up just taking home the same amount. Yeah. So it's wild that

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:52

you can have way more clients, and you're making the same

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:42:55

amount in net profit. Yeah. For me, it's,

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:00

imperfect action beats perfect inaction. Oh.

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:03

Better to do something, like, not ideal than

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:07

to wait and wait and wait to get it perfect, and then you end up

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:10

never doing it. Yeah. Nice. I use that with my clients all the time. Now

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:14

they're struggling to get started because they want it perfect. It's like, imperfect action

Daniel Abendroth: 00:43:18

will beat it every time. Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, I I don't know

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:22

why. I mean, the one that I thought of of don't expect people to act

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:25

the same way Mhmm. I was like, well, how does this even tie into this?

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:29

And I'm like, oh, wait a minute. That is, like, with scope creep. It's like,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:32

exactly. Like, you're expecting somebody to act a certain way or, like, behave a certain

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:36

way. Like, well, these are how all my clients, you know, treat me or this

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:39

is what I've always done, you know, but then they act a different way

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:42

and it's like so that's why we gotta make sure that's we have

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:43:46

clear Boundaries. Boundaries. Well, Heather, if people

Jennifer Longworth: 00:43:50

wanna get in contact with you, the Radical Profit Fairy, as

Jennifer Longworth: 00:43:53

you, sometimes call yourself, What's the best

Jennifer Longworth: 00:43:57

way for us to connect with you? You can find me on

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:01

Instagram @getradbiz. That's probably the easiest

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:05

way to find me because my last name is kind of a a hard

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:08

one to spell. I know that feeling. But,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:12

yeah, hit me up anywhere. You know, it's like, you know, you can find me

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:15

on LinkedIn. I'm barely on TikTok, but so

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:19

Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn. You can send me an email

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:23

at heather@getradbiz dotcom. Yeah. Just contact

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:27

me and, you know, if you are interested in tax, bookkeeping,

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:31

or any kind of other kind of services, like, I do profit

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:34

advising. So this type of thing that we're talking about today, like, looking

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:38

at your business and, like, drilling down, like, if you don't wanna look at the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:41

numbers, like, I will geek out on your numbers for you and look at the

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:44

data and we'll, you know, figure out some a good plan of attack for

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:44:48

you. Yeah. Love it. Well, Daniel, if someone wanted to be a

Jennifer Longworth: 00:44:51

guest on our show, what would they need to do? They simply have to go

Daniel Abendroth: 00:44:55

to podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest, fill out the

Daniel Abendroth: 00:44:59

form, and we will get in touch with you. And this is perfect for anybody

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:02

who, like Heather, is an expert and wants to share their knowledge and

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:06

expertise, or like me and are struggling

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:10

and want somebody to give them advice and expertise and to kind of soak it

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:13

all in. So if you are struggling with something and you want to mastermind

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:17

it and get advice from people that might have different experiences

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:21

than you, we love doing that as well. So

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:24

podcasteditorsmastermind.com/beaguest.

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:28

Alright. And this has been Podcast Editors Mastermind. I've been your host, Jennifer

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:32

Longworth. You can find me at BourbonBarrelPodcasting.com. My

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:35

cohost this evening has been? Daniel Abendroth, and you could find me

Daniel Abendroth: 00:45:39

at RothMedia.Audio. And not joining us

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:42

live, but he was in the chat, Bryan Entzminger with Top

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:46

Tier Audio and also not joining us with Carrie Caulfield at

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:50

Carrie.Land. Heather, again, thank you so much for joining

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:54

us, and we'll keep in touch. Awesome. Thank you. Thank

Jennifer Longworth: 00:45:57

you.

Heather Zeitzwolfe: 00:46:02

So How much is that?